The 94 460 Fuel Pump Problem

Can't go anywhere without a working drivetrain
Keystone
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B190 Year: 1994
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The 94 460 Fuel Pump Problem

Post by Keystone »

My low-miles B-van is showing symptoms of "vapor lock", after driving in the heat on highways for a couple hours and then slowing down on back roads. It stutters, loses power, and finally stalls, refusing to run until it cools off, usually about an hour or so. Then it runs fine. This topic and scenario for trouble is all over the RV sites, always with EFI, the 460 engine and the F53 chassis (that's us) in the early-mid 1990's. And, I think I've seen a few members here describing the same problem.

Mechanic has ruled out many things: PCM (I already have the fix, it turns out), Coolant TS, MAP sensor, pressure reg., fuel filter, injectors), and now I'm thinking it must be the fuel pump. As I understand it, if your fuel pump is operating properly, it is essentially impossible to get vapor lock. The fuel pump should create pressures in the 40 psi range, high enough to prohibit vapor lock, even if the fuel is pretty hot. If the pump pressure drops off at high temps (temps in the range of our vehicles' fuel systems, anyway), fuel can vaporize. Why does the pressure drop? Faulty fuel pump part, or--more likely--faulty design.

The original in-tank fuel pump with our units has been superseded by a turbine-style fuel pump. Ford issued a TSB back in 97 or so, with the fix of a newly designed fuel pump. Since then, it looks like they have redesigned it a couple more times, and the model number of the part has changed accordingly--sometimes hard to track which one is which. So, Ford must have determined that the original pump design was flawed, and a few lucky people even had their pumps changed out on warranty. It's a bit late for warranty work at this point...

Before I throw ~$1000 at it (I cannot do the work myself), I'd like to hear from others who have replaced their fuel pumps (and any other parts of the assembly), especially the 94 vintage with the midship fuel tank. Which exact part number(s) did you use? Ford or aftermarket part? How much did you have to spend? Did it fix the problem? Completely?

Thanks, all. I'll report back with my progress.

Keystone
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sparky
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Post by sparky »

weekender, i had the same problem in my 95. The only time it happened was in the winter in a warm climate. Texas in Feb about 85°. I only had to wait 20 minutes or so. I think that was partially due to winter blend of fuel because it did not happen to me in the summer in Wis. I finally replaced the fuel pump myself this past spring. After market from Carquest. Under $200. went down to Texas over the 4th of July. 100° temps and running the cab air. Did not buck once. I think i have it fixed. You are right a lot of info about this problem. My van had a ford pump in it. Another thing i found was a previous owner had plugged a performance chip into the computer. That started acting up with a similar problem. Took the chip out. It is behind the gas petal. Have the fuel pump replaced.
Keystone
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Post by Keystone »

Sparky, thanks for chiming in. Your story bolsters my confidence. Glad to hear your van is working well with a new pump.
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jeffreyd426
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fuel pump

Post by jeffreyd426 »

1993 b190. Two years ago we had our fuel pump replaced at 57,650 miles. IT was around 100 degrees, and the van ran fine until it just quit. Funny thing, at the same time a 1993 ford class C van came in with the same problem! They put in a car quest pump(E2059mn), and fuel filter. The van now has 78,000 miles, and has run fine since the repair. Prices:265.34 fuel pump,260.00 Labor,14.26 fuel filter.
Keystone
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Post by Keystone »

Jeffrey, That is good news about your pump, and not too pricey, either. Appreciate the post. I have asked my mechanic to order parts (he is insisting on Ford parts, tho') and with luck I'll have the new pump in before we leave for labor day weekend. I've also asked him to check pump ground wiring (as suggested by Craigmar) and integrity of fuel lines, while inspection is "easy". Hey, I'm starting to feel optimistic!
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craigmar
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Fuel Pump info

Post by craigmar »

Just for information, I have been checking out cost and replacement for my 91 since I am starting to experience the same problems as others with stalling etc. The shop I took my van to gave me a copy of a recall issued 06/26/1991 with the following info.

Stalls or Quits 4.9L, 5.8L, 7.5L-fuel pump vapor lock.
light truck: 1988-91 E-350
Issue: The engine may stall, quit running or appear to run out of fuel in warm temperatures. After the engine cools, it can be restarted. These conditions are caused by fuel pump vapor lock.
Action: Install a new in-tank fuel pump and sender with gasket.

the paper goes on to explain shop manual sections and also gives part numbers which from all indications from other members, those part numbers have changed over the years (20) since.

The shop I went to wanted to replace the two in the tanks and also said there was a third pump (high pressure unit) on the frame to replace for a total of $994 and change. They couldn't do the job because their lift couldn't handle the weight of the van. Think I will shop around or get some help and go to a new place that opened up that rents tools, lifts etc and do the job myself.
Keystone
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Post by Keystone »

My new fuel pump was installed yesterday. Mechanic does not use a lift for this procedure though I am not sure how he drops the tank. The parts (Ford, not aftermarket--despite the recommendations from members here for aftermarket parts he was firm about using the Ford parts) came to $523. Labor was another $285. With tax and some supplies, total came to $844. So far it runs fine, but I've only driven it about 30 miles. The first real test comes this weekend in the Frying Pan Wilderness, a place where it has stalled out on a previous trip.

I have my fingers crossed...

Thanks, everyone for the information and support that has gotten me to this point. Craigmar, good luck with yours!
Keystone
1994
B190 4x4
Keystone
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Location: Boulder, Colorado

Post by Keystone »

Just a quick followup to this topic: "The 94 460 Fuel Pump Problem" is a problem no more. Despite hot conditions this weekend and crawling up long, steep hills in 4-low, the engine powered on and never even thought about stalling. Even tried stopping and starting, which always used to bring on a stall, but worked fine this time. Though we did again smell gasoline when things got quite hot, I can live with that if the van keeps on running.

Bottom line: I'm a happy camper with my brand new fuel pump! Thanks to everyone for the support.
Keystone
1994
B190 4x4
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craigmar
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Fuel Pump Problems

Post by craigmar »

There has been quite a bit of info etc. on these fuel pumps and the problems associated with them. I have had my share as well and with the last problems was told that I had three pumps ( in the two tanks and one on the frame that was actually a high pressure pump to get the fuel to the engine). The high pressure pump on the frame was replaced and still the problem persisted, took it back to the shop and one of the mechanic's went on a ride with me and wouldn't you know, the van was riding flawlessly until just before pulling into the shop. They had the van for over a week checking the pump pressures and numerous other thoughts about what was wrong. I finally got a call with what they thought was the problem finally solved. The van was put in the air and they checked the catalytic converters and found that they were completely plugged up which they said was causing back pressure to the engine which caused the problems I was having. I took the van for a drive first on the flats and then up to the mountains and so far have not experienced any problem. We are heading out to Yellowstone this week as My wife's father passed on last week and since both parents were cremated, they wanted their ashes mixed and some taken to their favorite camp spot (Yellowstone) to be spread wherever the wind may take them so I will update this after we get home. Who would have thought that the catalytic's would be a major headache. The mechanic said it's relatively easy for them to get plugged up from running to lean, to rich or whatever and the best way to prevent the problem is a good tune up. We'll see what happens.
Last edited by craigmar on Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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OnTheRoad
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Post by OnTheRoad »

Did they replace the catalytic converter, or are they able to be cleaned somehow?
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craigmar
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Catalytic Converters

Post by craigmar »

They replaced both units ($200+ Per Unit) I didn't think about asking that question as the way it was explained to me I got the impression that they were pretty well shot. The shop guy said something like "cats don't die, they get killed" so to me it was kind of a moot question. I don't even know, can they be cleaned??
Maybe thats one on me that I should have been smarter on but hope is that this set will outlast me if these go for 20 years.
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skater
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Re: Catalytic Converters

Post by skater »

craigmar wrote:They replaced both units ($200+ Per Unit) I didn't think about asking that question as the way it was explained to me I got the impression that they were pretty well shot. The shop guy said something like "cats don't die, they get killed" so to me it was kind of a moot question. I don't even know, can they be cleaned??
Maybe thats one on me that I should have been smarter on but hope is that this set will outlast me if these go for 20 years.
I don't think they can be cleaned. I've never heard of it. I think what you paid is about right. I had a high-flow cat installed on my car and I believe it was about $200.

I do know us Mercury Cougar owners are known to "gut" the precats (which are small catalytic converters against the engine that warm up faster than the main cat), but that involves removing everything inside of them. So it's not really "cleaning" as much as "hollowing out".
1991 Airstream B190 - bought, 2005; sold, 2011; bought 2017
1995 Airstream Excella 30' trailer

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craigmar
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Catalytic's vs Fuel Pump Problem

Post by craigmar »

Just an update. We put on over a 1000 miles this last week from going to yellowstone to scatter some ashes and then hitting various sites in Idaho for one or two day stays. The van never had a glitch except for the cruise kicking in or out on some of the uphill climbs. We cruised along at 65 for the most part during the whole time. I think the new Cat's have solved our problem and maybe saving us money on trying other solutions. It's a weird one because we were experiencing the same problems as others have had and our solution was quite different, I wish there was a way to really come to a consensus of what the problems could be without us all having to spend money on different fixes but at least all these solutions give us an idea as where we might start.
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Re: The 94 460 Fuel Pump Problem

Post by Jonny »

Man this fuel pump problem sure sounds like what is happening to me. On slow drives in town it'll start stuttering a bit then over a few minute period get worse and finally die. Let it cool off and its fine. On highway it won't do it ever. Changed ignition module distributor cap alternator (all tested semi bad) and no fix.

Since it only does it on slow city driving I gotta say its heat related. Fuel or converter. I can get the new pump at dealer cost for like $120 and free labor from my cousin's shop, which is way cheaper than checking converter I think. Hopefully I'll be able to report back here that a pump fixes it!
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craigmar
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Re: The 94 460 Fuel Pump Problem

Post by craigmar »

I haven't really had my van out on the road for a while since my last trip to yellowstone, because of some family matters to be taken care of but we did inherit a class A from my wife's parents and so we took it to No. Carolina for a training that my wife had to attend for her work (therapist, owns her own counseling center, Hope Christian Counseling) and we were gone for over a month in the gulf states along with some of western states as well. The motorhome ran well at freeway speeds but in Texas started to stall out like others on this site and when slowing down to get off the freeway etc would stall out. We would do what others have done and just wait it out by fixing dinner or watching television etc. I nursed it through to N.Carolina so my wife would not miss her training and took it to a shop near the Charlotte Motor Speedway where they replaced the fuel pump ($645 for the pump and $600 for the labor, two nights in a hotel and rental car fees) We haven't had a problem since and were able to enjoy the rest of the trip staying at various campgrounds in the different states (N.C.-Ala-Miss.-Fl. Georgia-La-Tx.-N.M.-Nev-Az) it was a long trip and one which we deserved not having had a real vacation for so many years taking care of our parents until passing (3 sets because one set had divorced and remarried) but the problems described were the same as others on this site and as a matter of fact our engine is a ford fuel injected engine as well. I don't blame the engine as it runs strong but the fuel pump in this case was the culprit.
We took the motorhome rather than the b190 because it has a queen bed in the rear that my wife could use without having to make it up every day or walk around etc. also the stand-up shower for me was the plus factor as I'm about 6' 2'' and around 240 and I had room to spare. Our b190 has served us well but I am going to take it in and get it detailed and tuned and then put it up for sale. It's a 1991 and I'd like about $7000 but probably would settle for $6500 anyway if you know anyone interested they can look at my various post's to see what problems it may have had and the fixes. I will be posting it on this site and probably local sometime next week or so.
This site has been a wealth of information to me as the b190 was our first journey into the motorhome experience and I thank everyone who has contributed. I hope if I am able to sell the Van I can still be a welcome member and still contribute if a subject comes up that I may be able to share something worthwhile or edible.
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