Replacing the converter

Electrical issues, both 12 volt and 120 volt
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skater
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Replacing the converter

Post by skater »

My power converter was dying quickly last season. For one trip where I didn't have a city water connection, I found that when the water pump kicked on, the radio would shut off because of low voltage. I checked the voltage a couple weeks ago with just the Fantastic Fan running (at its lowest speed) and the radio on, and it was around 11 volts. Definitely too low. Also, my battery was cooked by the converter and was completely worthless. (To ensure it wasn't just the battery, I disconnected the battery when I did the voltage check.)

After doing some research, I settled on the Progress Dynamics Inteli-Power 9200 series 60 amp converter model PD9260C. I ordered it from Best Converter because they (a) include the optional remote pendant, and (b) someone from the company has an Airstream himself and hangs out on the AIR Forums site providing advice, and in fact answered my question about whether this unit would fit in the original spot (it does, barely).

Note the original converter is 32 amps, and the new one is 60 amps. 60 amps is probably overkill for an RV the size of the B190 but I know I might be adding a number of 12-volt accessories later so I figured the extra headroom would be useful. Also I think the 60 amp unit actually fits better than the 45 amp unit would, because the 45 amp unit is taller. For the supply side of things, the 120 volt circuit the converter is on is rated for 20 amps, and the 60 amp converter won't use anywhere near that - at most it comes out to about 8 amps, and that's only if you're using 60 amps of DC power somehow.

Also, I ordered the fuse panel kit from Best Converter because the old fuse panel only filters the power for certain circuits, not all of them. Also, this would allow me to split things into multiple circuits more easily if I ever wish to (in particular, I'd like to run the radio and CB on their own circuit).

My new battery is an Optima Blue Top. I went with Optima because they have a pretty decent reputation, and because I wanted a sealed cell that required no maintenance, and because they were readily available locally.

On to the show. First, here's how it looked before I started:
Image (Click on pictures for larger versions.)

And here's a shot of the new components:
Image

The first step was making sure the unit was unplugged, generator off, and the deep cycle battery disconnected. I flipped the breakers off for an extra measure of safety. Then I took the front cover of the power center off - four screws. I then cut the black and white 120 volt power wires (left side), and I disconnected the red, white, and blue 12 volt wires from the fuse panel (the loose wires are visible in the next picture). Note the blue wire is held on with a nut on the back of the fuse panel, so you'll have to remove it by taking out the two hex screws just below and on either side of the blue wire connection, then putting a wrench on the nut to hold it.

Image

Remove the four screws on either side of the old converter's guts, and it should slide right out. My drill's battery was dead, so I wasn't able to drill out the rivets holding the converter's guts in place, so I turned to the fuse panel.

It's pretty straightforward - I removed each accessory wire (red, blue, brown, and purple, visible in the first picture) one at a time and attached it to the new fuse panel. Then I disconnected the large battery wire (along with a smaller black wire that's in the same terminal) on the top right, and the ground wire on the bottom right of the fuse panel (hidden in the picture). The old fuse panel should now be free to remove.

Image

I attached the black wires to the "battery positive" terminals of the new fuse panel - this took some doing because the wire it too thick to be very flexible, and there's not enough extra length to come in from the top. I also connected the ground wire and screwed the new fuse panel in place.

I loaded the fuse panel with fuses - two 30 amp fuses where marked (I had some laying around from the air compressor), and I used the old 15 amp fuses to fill all circuits I'd put wires to. Note - in mine, the circuit on the right actually had a 25 amp fuse, but the new board has a limit of 20 amps in each of those positions. I put in a 15 amp fuse. This circuit contains the water pump, monitor panel, and 12 volt outlet, so 15 amps should be plenty, I think.

Next, I turned my attention to the 120 volt side. The new converter comes with a standard 15 amp 120 volt plug on the end of the cord, but the old one was hard wired. I removed the cover over the breakers, then removed the breakers (it's one of those "two breakers in the space one usually takes" setups) that had the connection for the converter. I disconnected the black wire for the converter from the breaker and the white wire from the neutral bus bar. Then I wired the black wire of the outlet (included in the kit) to the breaker, the white wire to the neutral bar, and the green wire to the ground bus bar.

I also took the opportunity to vacuum under there. It was pretty nasty.
Image

Finally the drill was charged. I first removed the cover of the box (four screws). Then, I used the drill to drill out the rivets of the converter box, then used a chisel (cleverly disguised as a screwdriver) and hammer to break things free. That was kind of fun to do, and as you can see in the next picture the guts came out pretty much in one piece. I also used Simple Green to clean up the metal case. I intend to steal the temperature sensor that triggers the fan before I toss the rest of the stuff - I bet I can find an interesting use for it.

Image

From there it was simply a matter of fitting in the new converter, marking the holes, drilling the holes, then running the supplied screws into them. Don't forget to plug in the Charge Wizard and you might as well hook up the 12 volt wires now (red to positive, white to negative) - it'll be a lot easier. Here's a shot of it fitted together, with the cover ready to go back on:

Image

Note - the cover needs to go on with the screw holes above the top of the box, not below (see the picture of the old guts to see what I mean). I put the cover on upside down the first time and had to disconnect several wires and pull it back out to fix the problem. Also, the holes for the wires won't line up.

At this point, I was ready to put it all back together. Slide the box in, being careful to feed the outlet and wires through the holes. Hook the red wire to the top of the fuse panel where it says "Converter positive" and the white wire (negative) to the "Battery negative" terminal. Plug in the converter, turn on the breakers, plug in the camper, and verify the converter is producing voltage (since the battery is disconnected, if the 12 volt appliances work, the source of that power must be the converter). I checked the voltage and found it was 13.6 volts.

If you bought a new battery now is probably a good time to install it. Note if the battery is hooked up backwards, three fuses on the side of the converter will blow and will have to be replaced AFTER the connection is corrected.

At this point, I did a load test - I turned on every appliance and light I could and verified the voltage - the system voltage was 13.6 volts. Good. I switched off the breaker for the converter and the voltage dropped to 13.2 volts. Also good.

As you can see in the final picture, I routed the wire for the Charge Wizard out of the gap in the panel and attached it next to the power center (after cleaning the spot where I was going to attach it). The Charge Wizard's fast blinking indicates it's in "storage mode" which means that it's simply maintaining the battery, not trying to charge it. You can press the button to have it switch to boost mode but I don't think there's a reason to do that under normal conditions.

Image

And that's it. This took me a total of probably 5 hours, but that included going to get new drill bits and buying the new battery, and it's really not that hard to do.

Note - I did not hook up the grounding lug, which I plan to do yet. However the converter is grounded via the fact that the metal converter case is connected to the metal box, which is itself grounded, so not having the ground connected isn't as bad as it would at first seem. But it really should be connected.

Update: I let the camper sit for a couple days, with the converter plugged in and turned on. It went into storage mode and was outputting 13.3 volts.

Here is the blinking of the charge wizard as I understand it - it may not be completely accurate; as I get more experience I'll update this:

* Occasional blink: storage mode (13.3 volts)
* Rapid blink: normal mode (13.6 volts)
* Slow blink: running off battery (whatever the battery is putting out)
* Solid: boosting battery (not sure of the voltage)

Update 2 (5/2/2008): I've used this on a camping trip now. Everything just seems to work better. For example, the lights are brighter. My florescent light no longer flickers maddeningly, something it has been doing since I bought the camper. The water heater seems to start more smoothly. The Fantastic Fan seems to run better. This was definitely worth the investment, and if it extends the life of the coach battery, in the long run it should actually save me money...

Update 3 (7/19/2008): I've used this on a couple trips now. Basically, the 60 amp model really is overkill - it's frequently in storage mode while I'm camping and using fans, lights, etc. But that's okay, because it means the converter isn't working very hard either, so it's not getting hot. I think the only time I've seen it in "Boost" mode is after using the coach battery to start the generator and having to do it many times before the generator started actually running.

Update 4 (12/28/2011): Although we sold the B190 a few months back, I was so happy with this converter that I put the exact same on in the new trailer. :)
Keystone
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Keystone »

Hey, I just joined the ranks of the replaced converter club. Final installation picture of my PD4635 appears in my gallery: http://b190.com/gallery2.php?g2_itemId= ... 387054fb41. Thanks to you, Skater, and all the others who did the research to find that new converters existed, that a new converter would likely cure the battery-killing problems, and to make it sound easy to do so that I might try it myself. It actually was not that easy for me, because it seemed that the existing battery wires were too short and I struggled for quite some time to try to make them fit onto the new DC board. Then I figured out that I could feed the wires, hopelessly crimped in their blue plastic protector, in through a higher, previously un-punched knockout, and they just barely fit. Whew! The rest of the installation was pretty straightforward.

Update 1 (8/30/12): this new converter is a game-changer. I can finally enjoy the convenience of long-term shore power in the driveway without the worry that I'm killing the coach battery. The 3- stage charging scheme (14.2V, 13.4V, and 13.0 V according to my measurements) works dependably and complies with the recommended strategy for deep cycle AGM batteries. Before I pulled out my old converter, it was delivering a pathetic 11.4V during charging from shore power-- which is why I had quit plugging it in, instead relying on the alternator for charging on the road and a Schumacher charger at home. I'd recommend this upgrade to anyone with an older van (mine is a 94) that seems to be going through coach batteries too fast. Check your charging voltage to see if you need the fix.
Last edited by Keystone on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Keystone
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Alaskan »

Hey....this is something I totally missed.

Thanks Skater... !
VanDownByTheRiver
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by VanDownByTheRiver »

Could you let me know which "fuse panel kit from Best Converter" you are referring to? I haven't been able to find it. Thanks for the great writeup!
'94 B190 w/ 460
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skater
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by skater »

VanDownByTheRiver wrote:Could you let me know which "fuse panel kit from Best Converter" you are referring to? I haven't been able to find it. Thanks for the great writeup!
Here it is, or at least one very close to it. This part isn't really necessary if yours isn't causing any problems. I replaced mine in case I decided to do more electrical work to the camper.
1991 Airstream B190 - bought, 2005; sold, 2011; bought 2017
1995 Airstream Excella 30' trailer

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Keystone
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Keystone »

Hi vandownbytheriver: A new fuse panel (called an upgraded DC distribution board) came in the PD4635 converter kit that I purchased and installed. I believe that this model wasn't available when Skater upgraded his converter. You can see the new panel in the linked gallery photo in my post above. Btw, my new converter still works great. -Keystone
Keystone
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VanDownByTheRiver
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by VanDownByTheRiver »

Thanks again guys! I'm working on installing the 9260c, but am not sure what's positive, negative, and ground of the red, white, and blue wires that run from the converter to the fuse panel on the right side. I might be posting back with a blown fuse story!
'94 B190 w/ 460
VanDownByTheRiver
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by VanDownByTheRiver »

Up and running! For some reason, I'm getting ~14.4v in Boost mode (solid light) by default.

Thank you all so much for your detailed posting! I just tried to upload picture without success, so I'll try again from my computer asap.
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skater
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by skater »

VanDownByTheRiver wrote:Up and running! For some reason, I'm getting ~14.4v in Boost mode (solid light) by default.
I think that's correct for the boost mode. Obviously it'll only do that if your battery is run down, and it'll switch to a lower voltage as the charge in the battery comes up. (In ours, it'll boost for a minute, cycle off, measure the voltage, then go back on boost if it needs to, and it'll keep repeating it...it gets kind of annoying after a while because the lights are super bright...then a little dimmer...then super bright... etc.)
1991 Airstream B190 - bought, 2005; sold, 2011; bought 2017
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mtnmanb
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by mtnmanb »

Thanks for the informative step by step instructions, most helpful! Questions though....

I'm 95% done with replacing with the PD 4655 inverter and DC board that came with it. Unfortunately, I cannot fit that big black wire (and it's accompanying smaller black wire) into the lug terminal in the DC board. You mentioned that you had a bear of a time fitting it in there as well. After about 5 hours, I just cannot get it to stay in there without lots of small wires overflowing around it. Is the size of that wire really necessary and can I replace it with something smaller? Does it go to or from a battery directly and that's why it's so big? I think I remember seeing a picture from Kentuckian where he had a smaller diameter red wire going there. http://b190.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1316

Thoughts?

Also, I'm going to add a battery or two (AGM) under the couch this coming weekend with a battery box. Do you splice into a main battery wire or hook it directly to something else? I've searched the message board and cannot find a picture of this being done anywhere, but many have talked about it. Please help!

Thanks!

B)
'90 bought 27Apr2012
Added Safe-T Stabilizer shock, port. generator, EZE RV gutters, curtains, memory foam 5.5" mattress, rebuilt bunk, Double Pancake LED light, O2 sensor, shore plug, 4655 Converter, Battery under couch, MaxxFan Fantastic Fan
Keystone
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Keystone »

I remember that the battery wire connections slowed the completion of my converter replacement, too. I felt that the wire was too short to attach to the terminal, but then (as I recall) I figured out that I could remove a more convenient punchout where the wire feeds in to the converter box and that gave me enough length to work with. Sorry I don't have a picture of that.

Before you consider changing to a smaller gauge wire, it's important to understand why the heavy wire is used for high amperage circuits--to prevent overheating, voltage drop, and the possibility of a fire. Here is a link to a 12-V wire sizing table that I found (there are several out there): http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps- ... d_730.html that relates wire guage, current flow, and wire length in a handy sizing graphic. Hope this is helpful.
Keystone
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Mgittrich »

I'm in the process of working on a similar upgrade to my 93 b190. I upgraded the converter to a pd4655, installed a battery switch and 120 amp breaker to support a new battery bank I will install in April once I pull the b190 out of storage. For me, I wanted to be able to use the battery switch to switch between the new battery bank and the original house battery under the hood of the b190. I also wanted to to be able to disconnect all loads through the battery switch. This included the circuits directly attached to the dc panel via the smaller white and black wires connected directly pos. and neg. terminals on the dc circuit board in the converter. These wires directly attach the battery to the power seat and the refrigerator 12v operation mode and contain there own circuit breakers.

I originally wanted to convert these circuits to fuse on the circuit board but discovered that this was not possible due to the amps they draw was very close to 20 amps which is the fuse limit on the circuit board. This necessitated continuing with directly powering these circuits from the battery but I still wanted to be able to disconnect these loads via the battery switch.

To prepare for the installation of the new battery bank I followed this wiring plan.
Battery bank wiring plan
Battery bank wiring plan
image.jpg (66.88 KiB) Viewed 31266 times
Please note, I also installed a shunt and neg. bus bar to support the installation of a trimetric battery monitor and new 12v circuits I also installed.

To do all this I pulled all DC neg. and pos. wires attached to the fuse board out of the converter.

I took the red DC pos. from the battery crimped a ring terminal to it with a hydraulic crimper and attached this to a Blue Sea Power Post which I used to connect to a 4ga wire extending the original wire to the battery switch as BAT1. I did a similar thing to the chassis ground wire connecting it to the load side of the shunt.

To address the pos. and neg. circuit wires which control the seat and the refrigerator circuit, I used butt connectors and 10 ga. wire to extend them attaching the pos. to the output of the battery switch and the neg. to the bus bar which is connected load side of the shunt and the DC circuit hoard in the converter with 4ga. wire. Please note these wires are not depicted on the diagram.

Battery bank 2 which will consist of 3 group 31 AGM batteries, 1 under the couch and 2 under the stove, are connected as BAT2 on the switch via 4 ga. wire (positive side) with 4ga. wire running from the neg. battery posts to the battery side of the shunt.

There is also a 4 ga. wire connecting the output side of the switch to the DC circuit board.

This approach effectively eliminated the extra wires running into the converter and increased the wire gauge to 4.

Here's what the converter looked like after completing this.
Converter after PD4655 upgrade and batter switch install
Converter after PD4655 upgrade and batter switch install
image.jpg (94.32 KiB) Viewed 31266 times
I hope this helps.

Mike
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Rhettb
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Rhettb »

Mike,
I was planning to upgrade my converter to a PD4655 and add a second battery bank under the couch while keeping the original battery under the hood. I also wanted to add a 4 position battery switch so I could choose either battery bank or both as well as turn off all loads. If I understand your wiring diagram you would have to switch the house banks individually while charging the batteries with the converter. Does the PD4655 have separate charging circuits that would charge each house bank at the same time but separately charge them depending on their state of charge? Or does each bank have to be charged separately to avoid having the charger choose the weaker battery and set the state of charge accordingly?

If the PD4655 doesn't have separate charge circuits for each bank (as some smart battery chargers have) are there other converters out there that do handle charging two banks that may have different charge states.

Joel
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Mgittrich »

Joel,

The PD4655 does not have separate charge circuits for 2 batteries. In my research of possible converter replacements I did not see any converters offering separate charge circuits.

I fielded a question last fall regarding how the alternator charge current would get to each battery bank given the design above. As part of that post this is how I believe the battery banks can be maintained from the various charge sources in the B190.

When the engine is running the battery under the hood gets charged via the alternator. No change for airstream original design. The battery cable routed back to the converter also carries the alternator current. In my case after the modifications I've already made the battery cable has been routed to a Bluesea battery selector switch which has 4 options: OFF, BAT1, BAT2, BAT1+BAT2.

If OFF is selected, both battery banks are disconnected from each other and the fuse block. Great for storage. BAT1 will continue to charge just like normal if the engine is running.

If BAT1 is selected, the battery under the hood powers the fuse block and carries alternator current. This is equivalent to the original design the path is just a little longer. The generator and shore power would also charge the battery under the hood via the converter. The BAT2 bank is not charged or discharged.

If BAT2 is selected, the battery bank in the back powers the fuse block. No alternator current routes to this battery bank since it is isolated from BAT1 by the battery selector switch. If the generator or shore power are connected BAT2 is charged via the converter. BAT1 is not charged or discharged. However, if you were to start the engine while running the generator or plug into shore power both batter banks would charge. BAT1 via the alternator and BAT2 via the converter.

If BAT1+BAT2 is selected. Both battery banks are discharged and charged via all sources. This is great for charging both banks while driving but I'm a little concerned about overcharging the battery under the hood since the battery bank in back will be about 6x the capacity of the battery under the hood. I'll have to watch this closely initially. If this is problematic there are serval way to correct. You could add a second disconnect switch next to the battery under the hood or leave the battery selector switch set to BAT2 while driving and start the generator to charge both battery banks as described above.

I'm not sure where one would insert some kind of smart automatic charge relay that would sense battery charge and route appropriate current to each battery bank, but I'm sure that this could probably done.

I hope this helps.

Mike
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Planck
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Re: Replacing the converter

Post by Planck »

I think another issue to be concerned about with multiple batteries is overloading the alternator. I would make sure all house batteries are charged up before driving as it may overload the alternator if they are both low. Being able to select one or the other should help this while driving, if house charging is needed.

Phil
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